Killers and Thieves

When I first got this game I couldn't stop playing it. However, 25+ hours in, it's losing its lustre quickly. Those 25+ hours though were definitely worth it. So let me put it like this:
Pros:
- Stealth puzzle gameplay is fun and addictive.
- Thieve's guild management is something I'm really into.
- Immersive heist missions.
- Solid and challenging learning curve.
Cons:
- Micro-management of money with loading times.
- Repetitive art assets. Probably the biggest reason why it will start to feel repetitive.
- No chance of 0 murder runs. I feel less like a sleek thief and more like a grubby bandit.
Despite these cons though, I still recommend playing it... as well as waiting for some good future patches!

Since I've only just gotten it, I'll play further at a later point and edit this review as needed. For now, I will say that I sort of liked my time with Killers and Thieves, and while it has issues(Mainly the lack of tutorial, questionable controls,and civilian/guards being incredibly simple), it is still decent, though very much overpriced for what it does at this point.
Edit: Further playing reveals a much greater problem still- A complete lack of replayability. Once you've seen one or two randomly generated maps, you've seen it all. There doesn't seem to be much more than that, not even story wise.
After a few more hours of trying, it feels very much like a flash game with a great concept and no substance. it's neat and has potential, but it will never realize that potential and become great. Quite sad, but that's how many great concepts go.
My time with it is best summed up by analogy;
You get yourself a new bathtub installed, paid for it and finally want to use it to relax. You step in and the bathtub is too small for you to fit in it, so you awkwardly stand in it trying to take a shower. Then you get a phonecall. The shower was nice, but it only just started and now you're interupted. The phone call was someone trying to order a pizza with the wrong number. You go back to your shower and try to enjoy it when you get called again. someone else trying to order a pizza. This repeats for a few hours and you never get the water to heat up so you have to just take a cold shower and then you turn it off and go do something else. All the while you're left thinking about the wonderful warm bath you've been promised.
Original review follows;
Killers and Thieves puts the player in control of a medieval thieves' guild, an interesting idea that might have needed a bit more explaining and working out. As it stands, it is still worth looking at, but it does feel like it could have used a bit more thought at a lot of points.
The story seems pretty good, but the day to day business of robbing places, training your thieves and selling loot feels like it is lacking a bit and often feels clumsy and obtuse. The controls for your thieves are not very intuitive, and the stealth system not regenerating any points once you've lost them makes it impossible to enter stealth again after being spotted.
But that is just one of the systems that feels too simple to me. Perhaps I just expected too much, but so far I've not yet found any unique looking maps. Everything appears to be randomised, even the story missions I've found thus far. While it seems like a lot of effort was put in the presentation, into looks and mood, into the story itself and the concept, it doesn't seem like this effort was placed on connecting the story to the game. An early example is a story mission telling me to rob a place to put pressure on someone, the map was randomly generated, so I just went in and stole a bunch of stuff. With multiple houses there, I had no idea where I was supposed to go. But it turned out the answer was "Anywhere", as stealing from any of the houses counted. Then in a the story afterward the man's house was robbed, yet I couldn't picture the house as everything seemed to just be randomly generated.
While the graphics are good with a consistent, pleasant to look at style that isn't difficult to tell guards and loot apart from the background, the sound is maybe a bit too simple, with music and soundbites seemingly repeated over and over. This got a bit annoying after a while, which I found to detract from the general experience. They can certainly use more variety for the audio.
Guard AI, for a stealth based game, is fairly important. It is then sad that it is so simplistic. Guards seem to move at random, and stand still at random. This means that if you're unlucky, you're going to be stuck in a room for a long time waiting for the guards to move away. They often patrol in buildings randomly, wandering through bedrooms of slums and standing at random staircases in the middle of a house. There doesn't seem to be any sense, which leads me to believe the guard patrols are probably also randomly generated.
The RPG elements are slow, and you will need to level up a lot in order to get the training points needed to make your thieves capable of doing their job properly, and even then there are often not many ways you can use the skills in the maps as they are, even if you actively look for them. I like the idea of growing my band of thieves from poorly skilled randoms from the street to a group of elite heisters, but the leveling up, learning of skills and trying to make thieves better just doesn't seem to matter most of the time. Not to mention that it takes forever to get even the slightest upgrade.
It feels like they've had a great idea, but didn't really know how to turn it into a great game. So they got a story that seems good so far, and they've made some gameplay for it. But they don't seem to have really made it fit well together with the story, and the gameplay elements often appear to conflict in their goals. The numerous flaws in the game seem to break immersion quite often, and the sheer randomness of everything makes planning impossible. Controlling four thieves at the same time with the clumsy controls means you're likely to just leave three outside and use one at a time.
I like the idea, I like the art, and it seems like a lot of work went into the story. But the gameplay feels lacking in many ways. It is essentially the looting and exploration part of This War of Mine with slight changes to it, randomly generated every time and with an overworld system that doesn't seem to really do much anyway. Many things regarding the gameplay feel like they've not been thought about, leading to what feels like a patchwork of mechanics and systems that interact at times, but never truly work together to provide a great immersive and challenging experience.
It is worth getting and playing at some point, and you may very well end up enjoying it like I do. But I can see that it has big issues that would make it a frustrating and poor experience for many, so definitely do not get it at full price.

Introduction
Now this is a video game whose topic hasn’t been approached for quite some time! Killers and Thieves is a game about organized thievery in a low fantasy setting. I was fortunate enough to start playing on my PC around the time of the Thief series’ inception. The story, stealth mechanics and thrill of this particular role play, all formed the basis for what the gaming stealth genre is today. I always wondered though, what would be like to actually control a medieval thieves guild. The Elder Scrolls games offered an honorary title and the first person perspective of the scenario, yet they still lacked sufficient depth in this regard.
Killers and Thieves wishes to address this and offer players, the full control which a true guildmaster deserves. Planning, training, coordinating directly and even meddling in the internal affairs of Greypool, a city-state and its numerous warring factions. From the visual style alone, I could have guessed that Banner Saga was somehow evoked. I was not wrong, since the title I’m reviewing today represents the personal project of The Banner Saga’s Creative Director, Alex Thomas. It’s his Steam debut as developer and co-founder of Stoic and I do hope that Killers and Thieves is just the start of many more projects.
Story
With such a title, you’d think that Killers and Thieves is a pretty straightforward affair. I assure you that it is not. An intriguing story about constant betrayal and vying for control, is complemented by a good ol’ fashioned revenge motivation and as you probably guessed it, pure greed. We are talking of thieves here, afterall. For the sake of argument and roleplay, the “heroes” of our tale, shall only be referred to as “killers” when there’s no other option. That’s my way of playing stealth games or any similar title which requires finesse. Why kill innocent bystanders or even guards, when your objective is the loot itself and there are ways to obtain it, without taking any violent measures? It’s the best and most rewarding way to enjoy the Thief and Hitman series and I abide by non-violence, until forced otherwise.
Luckly, Killers and Thieves can accommodate both players which prefer the direct (and far more bloody) approach of leaving no witnesses behind or those which are patient enough to use stealth and other tactics, to their full advantage. Just by having these options, no one can complain that the game is too hard or restrictive. You just need coordinate your in-game actions and keep in mind that as guildmaster, you control an entire team of (initially) semi-professionals, not Garrett the Master Thief. Teamwork is as crucial to your ultimate success, as is the proper training of your subordinates while taking into account their individual strengths and weaknesses.
Part RPG and at least partially based on the strategy genres (both real time & turn-based), Killers and Thieves is still a fairly random experience. It ensures a lot of replay value, I agree. Yet it can lead to some frustration as well. I had to restart a new game, numerous times, until I was offered a decent starting team of thieves. Only three playable characters seem to be persistent throughout the story. Botch, the Patron Saint tavern keeper, Candle, a skilled female assassin and Key, a mercenary/locksmith and perhaps the noticeable brains behind most of the underhanded operations.
The tavern serves as headquarters for your guild and the characters I mentioned above, are referred to, by their nicknames. While there’s no complex backstory to the important characters, the game’s intro cinematic, does show us that Key was saved by Candle from certain torture and death. And Greypool, does remind me of the City in the Thief universe. A murky place, governed by corrupt merchant families. The ideal conditions for an equally thriving thieves guild.
Graphics
The graphical details in Killers and Thieves (proprietary engine), are a real paradox. On one hand we have beautiful, hand-drawn artwork for the main characters and maps and on the other, we are presented with repetitive and generic-looking 2D sprites and assets for the heists and missions themselves. It ran flawlessly in 4K@60fps. Thus we have a mixed bag, of both interesting and underwhelming visuals. Despite looking different in their character presentation screens, during heists all the guild members are exactly the same blue cloak-wearing clones, regardless of their gender.
The guards and city dwellers are also featuring only one type of 2D sprite. This issue has to be addressed by the developer in a subsequent update. Sure, Candle would stick up like a sore thumb if she was wearing that white robe everywhere, but don’t make her look just like the brawny dude you just recruited from another dive. Visual diversity needs to be implemented since the gameplay is currently being dragged down by the mission structure and looks.
Audio
I didn’t expect this game’s guards to keep yelling “taffer” every five minutes, but I would have preferred anything other than some caveman-like grunts. The guild members are as silent as the grave and perhaps that’s realistic enough during heists. Maybe they’re communicating through hand signals instead. Like true professionals, such as special branches of various armed forces. The soundtrack was also repetitive, so the overall sounds were a let down.
Gameplay
Apparently the initial lack of a proper tutorial led to disgruntled players (and negative reviews). I agree that those few still frames which discuss the basics, weren’t enough. The dev team introduced in Killers and Thieves' Main Menu, a YouTube clip with a detailed explanation on how the heist missions work and what tactics to apply. I shall summarize that by stating two key elements which shall lead to your victory. Other than the aforementioned teamwork, patience is paramount and for obvious reasons. No matter how brave or eager they may be, the thieves and killers you control cannot succeed in combat, against two or more guards consecutively. Avoiding duels whenever possible, is the key to prolonged survival on the brutal streets of Greypool.
Another gameplay aspect I’d like to discuss about, is the intial lack of basic “thieving” skills for the majority of your new guild members. We’re talking of prospective thieves that cannot get past a locked door! Key seems to be only one having this important skill from the very start and through training at the HQ, he’ll have to teach his other colleagues. Characters gain experience either through heists or “off-screen” missions (which have a certain success/failure rate and are automatically completed after several in-game days). Make sure you save 5 skill points for as many of the team mates, in order to train them about lockpicking. If you wish to be more versatile, have at least half of them learn to open locked doors and chests, while the other half should learn proper dagger fighting techniques from Candle.
Missions unlock in a linear progression, across Greypool’s districts and you shall learn all about the various factions. You can’t trust any of them and as guildmaster, you work for yourself and your (hopefully) skilled team. What’s important to understand, is that the start of Killers and Thieves simulates the hardships of starting a guild from the ground up, with people that you get to shape into real professionals, provided they live long enough. Remember, no amount of loot is worth risking the time and coin already invested in a veteran thief. Leave the high risk-high reward incentives for games that might be more forgiving about mission failure. No quicksave or even manual saves to spare you the loss or temporary incarceration of a valuable guild member.
MORE TO READ BELOW, IN THE COMMENT SECTION.

Caveat: I've been wanting a game very like this one for many years before it was released, so it's possible my glasses are slightly rose-tinted.
So first: I can see why the reviews are mixed. For my first several hours in-game, it was extremely frustrating. I was trying to make it work the way I thought it should work (since there really isn't a great deal of guidance), and...it wasn't working. Beyond problems on the heist, I had no grasp of the shop system for a bit, so my first few attempts were a tale of money problems and dead or imprisoned thieves.
And then something clicked.
And oh man have I been obsessed with this game since. And I'm still within the first 20-25% of the story!
Some pros:
It's a legitimately thrilling, rewarding experience to make that narrow escape with all the loot. A+ on capturing "the feel of the heist."
If you've ever wanted to have your own adventure in Lankhmar, this is the closest you'll get at the moment. The art and atmosphere make me feel like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser could pop up any minute.
Suitable price for the content, in my opinion. Great price when you consider how niche the subject is.
That je ne sais quoi certain games (XCOM series and the like) offer whereby the player develops complicated relationships with the in-game crew.
U/I and functionality: it looks pretty, it works, and it hasn't been as buggy for me as some of these reviews would indicate.
Music is pretty perfect.
Some cons:
I've come into contact with one very minor bug so far where a story-quest resolved without me being able to see the result. Pretty minor.
There are certainly some areas of gameplay which could be tweaked or expanded. Sadly, that doesn't look likely to happen. And that's a damn shame.
Probably the worst thing is how opaque certain gameplay elements are until trial-and-error teach the player how a skill or mechanic works. (The "climb" skill is still basically a guaranteed death-sentence whenever I try to use it.)
Okay. That's about it.
Buy it! Enjoy!

I'm going to recommend this game simply on the fact that the developer seems like he really wants to make the player base happy and is doing a lot to fix the issues.
That said, I think my biggest observations with the game are:
* UI / Controls (been said)
* First mission has you controlling 4 people. I think they should start you solo and slowly introduce mechanics.
* Mechanics need a LOT of work. Many of them just get in the player's way of having fun.
* Art is amazing of course.
* I expect a lot from this developer and have no doubt they'll deliver. I'm looking forward to releases in the next 3-6 months.
One extra thing. The actual management of a guild looked like the most fun to me. I understand scavenging, etc in the style of "This War of Mine", but I think until things are on par with those level of mechanics, that maybe I'd rather even have an "auto-heist" option with a chance of success or auto-pilot mode.

Long Review
TL;DR at Bottom
Let me know what you thought of this review in the comments below!
Verdict :
Sneak it into your library; recommended purchase
A Dagger in the Dark
Ten. Sweat trickles down Key’s brow as he twists and turns the lockpick in his hands, gently coercing the shimmering gold chest to reveal the loot inside, knowing the little time he has left is being bought with blood on the streets down below. Nine. On the streets of the Skardway four silhouettes dance, clangs screaming as steel meets steel, Candle doing her best to buy time for Key up above, knowing that the success of their mission rests solely on him opening that chest. Eight. More guards pour in from all sides, Candle’s flank just barely being guarded by Tough, wood cracking, shields splintering from the sheer force of his strikes. Seven. Candle opens the first guard’s throat, calling to Key to hurry up, as reinforcements from the guard post nearby are on their way. Six. Key hears a sharp clack, relief washing over him as he hefts the chest open, revealing their objective inside. Five. As Key frantically grabs all that he can, he reminisces on their objective: steal everything in an attempt to coerce a stubborn shop owner to hand over his boat. Four. Key hoists the loot over his shoulder and dashes down the staircase, a mad rush to get to the door down below. Three. Candle and Tough pile corpses upon corpses but the reinforcements are cresting the horizon, Key finally appearing at the door, out of breath just as they were out of time. Two. They group and shatter through the guards’ lines, leaving blood and confusion in their wake, determined in their sprint to the ladder leading them to safety. One. They slide down the ladder and into the safeways below. Welcome to Killers and Thieves, a fantastic experience of trickery and deceit, of blood and steel.
The Problems With Hiding
You’ll be operating in the streets of Greypool, a decrepit excuse for a city ruled by ruthless merchant lords who are as cruel as they are rich. Killers and Thieves is a stealth game, yes, but primarily a game of management. Managing your thieves and their skills, what loot you’re going to sell and where, and most importantly, managing your gold and making sure it trickles its way into all the right pockets. Now I said that Killers and Thieves is a stealth game, but I found myself having much more fun by ignoring the stealth entirely as opposed to trying to use it effectively. The controls are almost an exact parallel to This War of Mine, which works really well in a pseudo-survival kinda game like TWOW that moves at a much slower pace, but works extremely poorly in a stealth game where you need to be constantly microing your team. K&T may seem like a stealth game but I can honestly say that’s its weakest mechanic, which isn’t exactly saying much as even the weakest part is still solid, but still it’s a problem that needs to be addressed. Early on I tried to be the perfect thief and sneak through the levels, but I found that going the aggressive route was both more successful and enjoyable. The problem with stealth in K&T is that when a thief’s stealth runs out and you get detected, that’s it, that thief can no longer stealth anymore and if you try they’ll be detected and immediately arrested. Even if you kill all witnesses, apparently the guards are all one collective hivemind and can immediately know who’s been detected and where they are. Something else to mention, K&T has some glaring problems when it comes to its level design. Often times we say that levels feel the same when they’re actually not, just similar enough to fool us, but in K&T every level is literally the exact same as the last one, only with occasional and minute differences in room layouts, forcing you to sneak through the same grey houses on every single mission. On top of that, the stealth options are just extremely limited, being able to hide and really that’s about it, not really any other stealth abilities besides one or two that can be acquired through leveling up. This system may be barebones and not even remotely up to par, but I think the rest of the game is so well-crafted that it makes up for it entirely.
A Hidden Gem
Now it may sound like I’ve been just absolutely tearing into this game, and that this was planned as a scaldingly negative review, but the truth is that I’m just disappointed in the potential that was squandered by the poor stealth mechanics. The game itself is actually phenomenal once I managed to get past the hurdle that is the stealth mechanic and just go for straight up combat instead. I think that’s to the game’s credit in a big way, being able to build your characters in different ways so that they complement each other, and being able to somewhat choose how you want to play is extremely important in a management game like this. That’s where I can honestly say that K&T shines: the management aspect. The developers clearly put a lot of work and dedication into making sure that it was as detailed as possible, while also being simple and easy to learn. You manage not only your thieves, but also things like the safe houses in each district and even the shops in which you fence your ill begotten goods. The story and the world are pretty detailed as well, though I think there’s a better way of delivering the story than how they do it, through occasional cutscenes and notes before and after missions. I particularly enjoyed just how immersed I was, putting hours into K&T without even noticing; the flawless art and world design, coupled with the elegantly simple gameplay keeping me constantly engaged. I think that’s what K&T boils down to: while yes, it has a flawed stealth system and that frustrates me to no end, don’t mistake this for a mixed or even slightly negative review. I believe that this is quite possibly one of the best management games I’ve ever played and absolutely a worthy game from Stoic, but it does have flaws. Regardless, these flaws still can’t overshadow how much I enjoyed Killers and Thieves, through its exemplary world-building, tense combat, and top-tier management mechanics.
TL;DR
Even though it has a stealth system that can’t quite sneak by, Killers and Thieves gives This War of Mine a run for the best management game that I’ve ever played.
If you found this review helpful or entertaining then feel free to leave a comment and join my Steam Curator Group at Mudkips Gaming

I finally finished this game today. It's a great little gem, nice little twist in the end. It requires a certain maturity with regards to realizing the strategies that you can or should do.
When I got this game, I HATED IT. It was difficult and everyone kept ending up in prison. Fast forward a couple of years later, I decided to try it again. I started a new game and stuck with it over the course of the week.
It doesn't really matter what skills your thieves have. What matters is what your current group of four (at most) have and how you make it work.